Real Talk | The Culture of Policing

Good evening, everyone.

For those who don't know me, my name is Anthony Poore.

I'm the president and CEO of the New Hampshire Center for Justice and Equity.

And on behalf of our board of directors, some of those are here today.

And our partners at Black Lives Matter.

Seacoast and Black Lives Matter, Manchester.

Alongside our partners at the Greater Manchester, Nashua and Seacoast NCAAP.

Branches, we want to welcome you to tonight's community conversation on the culture of policing.

Thank you.

Assistant Commissioner of Public Safety Eddie Edwards for your leadership and support in helping convene this important conversation along with your law enforcement peers and colleagues.

We recognize that this issue is larger than any one conversation, any one community or any one organization, and an appreciation of similar initiatives underway.

We hope this conversation will be the first of many providing a safe form for New Hampshire's communities of color to gather, discuss and understand how and why incidents like this continue to happen.

Discuss what we can do from a practice and policy perspective to ensure an incident like Memphis, Tennessee, never happens in New Hampshire and aid in our communities of color Collective healing.

Let's be clear this will not be an easy conversation.

However, we intend to hold ourselves accountable to the New Hampshire standard of having difficult conversations honestly and respectfully focused on real solutions that reflect.

New Hampshire's realities, our values and our aspirations.

Appreciate you all coming tonight.

Thank you very much.

I just want to say, you know, our our hope for this conversation tonight is not to, you know, solve any isms, racism, you know, we're not trying to solve anything tonight in a 90 minute conversation.

And so we just want to make, you know, people mindful of that when they're asking their questions.

Just think of the time that we might have.

And hopefully this leads to further and deeper conversation.

You know, hopefully, let's introduce our panelists here.

So we have Quovella Maeweather she's from the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives.

And then we have Ronelle Tshiela.

She is the co-founder of Black Lives Matter Manchester.

Then we have Eddie Edwards.

He's the New Hampshire assistant commissioner of public safety.

And John Skippa is the director of the New Hampshire Police Standards and Training.

And I think we can get into questions and conversation now.

So there has been a lot of speculation, a lot of comments, a lot of thoughts on why conversations like this are necessary, especially when we know the state of the world.

A lot of people feel talking to police or anyone involved in law enforcement is not going to change anything.

So in you all's opinion.

Why is conversation like this important?

I can answer first, but I think I'm going to take it from a different angle.

Conversations like this, in my opinion, can be extremely discouraging because when we leave this room, we kind of look at the conversation we have and we say, Where do we go from there?

And a lot of the time we have conversations like this and we go absolutely nowhere.

And so I know that when I approached my fellow co-founders, my fellow organizers about this conversation, they were a bit skeptical and they kind of said, what's the point?

And a couple of them didn't even respond to me because we've had conversations like this in the past.

I will say, however, that this I think the group of people here, I don't think we have come together in this way before.

So I'm interested to see how the conversation pans out.

But that's how I see it.

I think I would say that this conversation is important, but it's reflective of what we do here in New Hampshire.

If you go back to 2020, we stood up the leak commission.

The governor initiated that commission, and I thought it was very helpful from that commission.

There were 48 recommendations that talked about many of the things we've done well in New Hampshire.

Now, we have members from Noble all around the country here tonight so they can talk about things that are taking place in Massachusetts and other places around our country.

But right here in New Hampshire, I think we're doing some very special, unique things.

These conversations continue to happen in our state because this entire dialog tonight started with a phone call from Anthony to me.

That's the partnerships, the relationships that we formed here in New Hampshire in order to keep things moving forward.

You have to have conversations, you have to build relationships.

And I think I'm very proud of our state and what we've been able to pull here together tonight.

You have representatives from all over New Hampshire here tonight.

You have some of the highest ranking members in state government here tonight, local government representatives, something you have two chiefs of police association and very broad.

So, New Hampshire, we've done some very unique things, and I think we should be proud of the progress we're making in our state.

We certainly can't fix every problem in the country, but a lot of problems we can fix right here in New Hampshire by having conversations.

So I think this is a great start to continue efforts we've already undertaken.

You know, I think that like any leader, any member of an organization, anybody who's in a relationship, conversations are not one and done clear conversation has to occur throughout the leadership and throughout the organization and throughout the relationship.

One conversation will not bring the answer will not maybe do more than just begin the process of resolution.

And so conversations need to occur often regularly, so that there's a mutual understanding that's going on, particularly in this realm that we're dealing with now.

So I think it's important that we not only do this this one time, but we keep it open, we continue it, we keep working away and trying to reach those resolutions.

So I'm going to say this is the best time to have these conversations before anything happens, because this is not just a panel.

We have a live audience.

You have people in the community.

They know who to talk to.

So if we don't have these conversations beforehand and the leaders are not in the room, you don't have those connections, you don't have those contacts.

You can't make a phone call and get everyone here.

As soon as incidents happen.

You know, Noble's philosophy to our executive is get in a room with people.

Right?

When it happened, the the old way was, well, it didn't happen in our state.

So why are we talking about that?

We don't do that.

Listen, not for the not for God.

Go I It could be us.

You know, things happen all over the country.

So I say this is the best time before anything happens.

And you make sure your relationships with the community are strong before rather than after.

So let's build on that.

The thought process of relationships with community, particularly community of color.

And a lot of times we have the question of I'm not going to go in and list names and incidents, but what has happened over the past couple of years, our communities of color constantly ask, how do you continue to work within law enforcement when what's happening in the world is happening?

And then how do you specifically do it as a police or law enforcement of color?

I want to make sure I understand the question.

Are you asking how?

It's a two parter.

Color walks in the atmosphere.

What is keeps going to happen?

Well, I mean, let me explain to you why I got into law enforcement.

That may be helpful.

My introduction to a law enforcement officer was during a domestic violence situation when I was a young man.

And I tell people the story because it's important to me.

This police officer was a very kind person.

He didn't have to be.

But as a young man witnessing what was going on in my home, he took me place him in the back of the cruiser.

How the conversation with me was very gentle and explain to me what was going on.

And that drew me to law enforcement.

And I knew growing up if I wanted to make an impact in my community, the best place to start was being in law enforcement.

I think law enforcement is one of the most noble, rewarding careers that you can have.

If you want to make an impact in your community, then be a police officer.

The energy, the education, the things that it takes to become a police officer and maintain that service to the community is something that you can be proud of.

If you can imagine for a moment being a police officer and you've been called to an incident, you've been called to a scene and you arrive at that scene, you have no idea what you're confronting.

But you know, you have to help someone.

You have to bring someone's life back into order.

And that's a rewarding thing to do.

And being a black male in law enforcement, I can think of no better way to address some of the issues that we confront, that we see and that's why I'm proud to be a law enforcement officer in this state, because I think New Hampshire has a very unique perspective when it comes to law enforcement.

And I've been in law enforcement of over 30 years.

I've traveled to 23 different states to do training in law enforcement.

And I can tell you this is a very special place.

So if you're here in New Hampshire and I go back to that, this forum tonight speaks to the very unique abilities that we have in New Hampshire.

The people of color in New Hampshire is a very small population, but enough I've gotten to not disrespect it.

They're seeing the hurt they brought together to have conversations in our state.

So to me, if we're talking about New Hampshire, then I think we're not perfect.

But we're getting there and I think we can be held up as a gold standard for the rest of the country.

No disrespect to my husband justice here from Noble, but I want to hold New Hampshire up as a model for the rest of the country because I think we're getting there.

I think we might be getting there.

But I do think we have a long way to go.

And I'm not going to spoil the rest of the conversation because I know we're going to get into that later.

But I guess my question would be, am I allowed to do this?

Can I, like, ask him a question and like this?

That's not your job.

Go ahead.

I'm kidding.

See, if racism is systemic, then does it really matter if we have more representation, as in more black police officers working in our local police departments or in these positions of power?

How do you see that?

Because I think it doesn't matter.

I think it doesn't matter who is in the system, because the system was built to work against us.

And so you're still working underneath a system that was created to disadvantage people of color, specifically black people.

So how would you respond to that?

Well, I would have to take issue with the latter part of your statement.

I don't disagree early.

I don't disagree initially what you just said was true.

But I can tell you now that's not the case.

This is not a perfect system.

People aren't perfect.

People aren't.

People have their own personal biases.

We we understand that.

We all do.

You have biases?

I have biases.

Now, when it comes to racism in our state, I think we work on those issues.

I do.

And I see it growing.

And I'm not willing to give up hope and say that we can't change the structure.

That's why I said before, if we can bring people into the system, you're talking about a systemic issue.

You're talking about the structure.

Then the best way to change that is getting people into the structure who are being honest.

Now, we can't have it if a police officer comes in the system, whether they be black, Latino, Asian, male or female or white, and they're not willing to live up to the principles and foundations of law enforcement, then that's the issue that we have in law enforcement.

But we can't look at an entire structure.

People have dedicated their lives and service to others and suggest that somehow the system they operate in is a racist system.

I'm not denying that there could be a racist police officers in New Hampshire, but I would deny that the structure of the Department of Safety is racist.

I would deny that the structure of our police stands and training is racist.

I would deny the the the notion that the police departments in New Hampshire are racist.

That doesn't mean that that's not a racist police officer, but it does mean that our structures are not racist and we're working on that.

I'm going to make it quick so that somebody else can speak.

I will just say that I do think that a lot of the foundations and principles of policing are built on white supremacy.

And so because of that, I think it's hard for me to imagine people coming in and upholding these foundations and principles and not also upholding white supremacy.

So.

I don't know to go back and forth.

I just want to just.

I can tell you right now, there is no way that I'm upholding white supremacy and anybody knows me.

That's not happening at all.

And I think being appointed as assistant commissioner of Department of Safety, recognizing that we have black sheriffs in the state, black police chiefs in the state, black leaders in the state, but we also have white leaders in the state who are in law enforcement, who care, who get it.

And this man who said and to my left, he gets it, the colonel, Nancy, police gets it, the chief Prosky gets it.

We have a representative from the attorney general's office here today.

So I think and again, I don't think any of these gentlemen or anybody else here would deny that could be racist.

Cops in New Hampshire.

But to suggest that the entire structure is racist or but we're upholding white supremacy.

Me, personally, no way.

All right.

I want to just bring it over to Quovella because I know Quovella.

You want to say something really quick before we open it up to the community.

So I'm going to cosign with you.

There is no way I would have stayed in this business over 30 years if it was built on that premise.

And I'm going to say this I stay because of that.

I retired after doing 30 years of service with for the first organization I was in.

Then I left and I came back and I came back kicking and screaming because I love my freedom.

But at the same time I knew there was a need and there is a need.

That's why we keep pushing the fact that we want more, you know, women and black law enforcement executives because it makes a difference.

And listen, we just want the combination.

We want it to represent a community.

We want, you know, young girls and boys to know that it is possible.

You don't have to be, you know, the cookie cutter white male to be a police officer.

There's people like me, there's people like you.

We all have to do this.

It's not who you are in terms of the job.

Because guess what?

If I take off this little lapel pin, I'm just some black girl driving a nice car, and it can happen to me, too.

I have children, I have teenagers.

They drive, they interact with law enforcement.

They're a little delusional because we're friends with a lot of them.

And I have to tell them it's not like this everywhere.

And it's true.

We know this.

It's not perfect.

But to say that is built on that, I say I say no, because I wouldn't state.

I don't think that that's true historically.

However, I think we have to look back to the roots of policing in this country.

And when you look back at that, it is true.

I know you were giving me a little nudge so we can.

Yes, I just want to go ahead and start opening it up to the community for anybody that might have questions or comments that they'd like to make.

Yes, James.

And if you just before we start, if you could just introduce yourselves and you know where you're from, that'd be great.

My name is James McKim and I am president of the Manchester branch of the NAACP.

And I think that one of the things that gets us in trouble is we're not specific about how we're defining our terms.

So when I hear the notion that the police systemically are racist, I think to ask the question, so show me a specific policy or precede here that is that police officers need to follow that would be upholding white supremacy.

Show me a specific policy or procedure because it's the policies and procedures that make up the system.

And simply to say that the outcomes of the system are are discriminatory and provide that that disparity does not necessarily prove that the system itself is discriminatory.

So I'd like to hear what policies and procedures we're talking about that are that are upholding white supremacy.

And then those are the things we want to have addressed, right?

Let's identify them so we can address them.

Thank you, James.

Anybody else would like to.

Great grace.

Hi.

Thank you.

My name is Grace, Kentucky.

I'm a manchester resident.

I'm also the program coordinator with the American Friends Service Committee.

And so I do disagree with that.

In addition to being doing the work that I do, I'm also a student of sociology and one of the tenants of my academic practice is that understanding that systems are not only policies and procedure, they are outcomes and they are the ways that those policies are implemented and who they're implemented upon.

So I understand I really respect everybody's opinions on it.

But often times what we have one way that we try to is to measure racism within a system or white supremacy within a system is by understanding who is impacted by those systems, who gets.

And when we're talking about policing, we're talking about who is getting charged, how often are they getting charged, who is getting arrested and who is getting incarcerated.

And the data in New Hampshire shows that there are disparities in our arrests, in our who's getting charged and who's getting incarcerated based on race.

When you measure the how how much higher, I believe black people are, what, 2.9, something like that times more likely 7%.

Thank you so much.

And so but we are less than 2% of the population.

So when we're thinking about how do systems interact with populations, how they impact those populations, that's one way to look at it.

And especially when we're thinking about the narrative that goes around whether a system is racist or not.

We must also be must understand the data, and we must also understand when we're looking at a place like New Hampshire where crime rates are decreasing, and yet disparities amongst populations, especially the black population, either are rising or remaining steady in comparison to the population rate.

I think that's one way that we can start to really dig into systemic racism, not simply how individual people act or behave in their roles.

Thank you, Grace.

Anybody else?

Hi, I'm Robert Thompson.

I'm president of the Seacoast Association, the NAACP.

A couple of things I think are worth noting.

One is that our modern day policing was developed in order to maintain control over black men.

That's just the truth.

That's a fact.

It doesn't mean that that's.

It doesn't necessarily.

I'm speaking too loudly, not loudly enough.

You like me to stand up?

I'm usually not difficult to be seen.

I'm usually quite easily seen.

It matters that our police system was developed.

Its origins are founded in the desire to maintain control over black men.

That's just a fact.

And why do we keep talking in order to communicate facts such as that?

That's profound.

And the only reason we have police is because they wanted to maintain control over black men.

So that's just so number one.

Number two, it is it is absolutely critical that we communicate.

We must communicate.

As a black man, I am in a minority.

Every time I drive past.

If you've seen me, I've waved at you.

It's because I don't know what you've heard of.

Black people look like me, and I don't want to be a victim of.

You're misunderstanding, which is?

I'm prepared to say it's understandable.

You're misunderstanding.

It's understandable.

The fact that we are communicating here is hopeful, but it is far from enough.

We you know, it is.

It is it is important.

It is critical for us to communicate.

You need to hear you who are white need to hear from people like me.

You need to know what it feels like to have to tell my ten year old child.

No, no, no, no.

You and your friends don't need to be throwing snowballs at cars because two of you look darker than the rest.

That was a very, very strange conversation to have with an 11 year old boy.

So that's part of the reality that if you're black in this in this state, you have to deal with.

Yeah.

Things.

Things in New Hampshire are not as critical as they are in some other states.

Right.

And but it is it is a misnomer and it is a dangerous misnomer to think that we are not still subject to the same miscalculations and abuses.

And one way to think about it is that it's really hard to get away from your origins.

And policing in the United States has its origins in the desire to control black men.

And that's just a fact.

Thank you so much, Jasmine.

One second.

Before we get to the next person, I just wanted to give our panelists a moment just to respond.

Just because our community and the audience really have spoken an exact opposite of what you all are feeling up here.

So when you hear these words from our people, how do you feel and what is that response?

The reverend is exactly correct.

You're you're exactly correct in the notion that some of the origin of law enforcement in New Hampshire.

I checked that.

That is correct.

Not in New Hampshire, but but really important to to recognize that.

It's important to recognize the reality that we're all functioning.

Yes.

And so to that point, I let's agree and we teach this at the academy, it's part of our constitutional law class.

We talk about the fact that a lot of what originated as law enforcement in our country was to collect people's property that ran away, escaped slavery.

And that's that's the background of people that have a hard time even saying that.

You just acknowledge that we can pause here and just acknowledge together that that's an outrageous reality to have to acknowledge.

And it's the truth and appreciate the difficult that you haven't even voicing that outrageous reality.

But it is important for all of us to understand that.

But the fact is that that history exists.

We do acknowledge it.

It is important to acknowledge it.

But in the present day, New Hampshire law enforcement system and I'll go back to what the assistant commissioner was saying and our representative from Nova was saying is I could not, as a man maintain a membership in in a profession that is is perpetuating racism or white supremacy.

To me, that is it is a foreign.

I and I understand my only experience as a law enforcement officer is here in New Hampshire.

I did about a year in Massachusetts as well.

But it was like right over the border in New Hampshire.

So I only know what I know.

And I can tell you that the notion of it is foreign to me.

During my law enforcement career, I had the occasion to interact with some gang members from New York City who were committing some pretty serious felony crimes.

And at one point, I was having a conversation with a young black male who knew that I knew that he was breaking the law, and he started to get very nervous.

And I said, What's the matter?

And he said, You don't understand where I'm from.

I know what's about to happen.

And I literally had to take a step back.

I did not know what to say to him.

And finally I said, Listen, sir, if you don't cause any kind of concern here, then you have nothing to worry about.

But to me, to have that conversation with that young man, to try to put him at ease, even though I was about to arrest him for committing a felony and he was a member of a street gang.

We confirmed that through our our connection with the New York City Police Department.

It still took me back.

And to me, that was a very strong lesson to know that while here in New Hampshire, we probably don't see or have to deal with some of the concerns that black people in other parts of our country have to deal with on a daily basis.

So it was a learning point for me.

So someone in the audience said something about policies, procedures, practices, command, staff, supervisors, all of that comes into play.

So I always tell everyone it matters who's at the top.

It does.

It really does.

Whether they're black, they're white woman man.

It matters who's leading from the top of each of these law enforcement agencies because they set the tone.

So when you look at who's being promoted, you look at who's being appointed.

I think everyone needs to keep an eye on that because that is what that's where it starts.

There's agencies where they'll tell you, Oh, it's not happening here and it's happening there.

But guess what?

The supervisors are not being held accountable.

The upper level command staff is not going out in the street to see how police are treating citizens.

Now, most people have body cams.

My supervisors are required to review multiple body cams every night and say, Oh, how are we going to do this?

I'm like, So since when we turn now?

Overtime.

I'm like, You have to do three.

And if that means you come in off the road, there's no take the extra 45 minutes for an hour to look at three body cams.

That's not a lot.

It's not a lot.

But they if you're not there, you don't see it happening.

If we're not reviewing the policies and procedures and practices because paper don't control people, when a law school, if it did, we all be out of work.

Quovella.

Thank you.

I'm just going to ask a quick question just because in my research I've noticed that new Hampshire hasn't collected any data since 2008 on their recidivism rate.

And I was just wondering, why aren't we collecting more data?

And are the uses of collecting data helpful?

Well, a couple of a couple of things I would say in terms of collecting data, we are certainly working to do that.

There are there have been a couple of different I think there was a piece of legislation introduced this year to look at collecting data.

It was one of the recommendations from the governor's commission that we collect data and and we're working towards that.

I mean, there are no easy solutions.

Nothing happens.

Nothing happens overnight.

But we're working towards that.

I can tell you different departments, nearly every clear accredited agency has to collect that data, has to share that data as part of their recertification for CALEA.

And clear is a you know, an accredited certificate that oversees law enforcement's policies and procedures to make sure they operate an the gold standard.

So that's happening at the Department of Safety.

We were collect data from all of the police departments.

We're actually undergoing a website redesign to share that data in a more useful way for the community so they can have access to it.

So we are building those bridges that people have talked about and or respecting from us.

So yes, data collection was one of the recommendations that was put forth by the LA Commission, and that was one of the things that I was really, I guess, excited that we were able to put on that list of recommendations.

That being said, I do think we need to have an honest conversation.

Good faith and data collection has met a ton of roadblocks along the way, and at the forefront of those roadblocks have been the state police, police officers, police unions, police departments, which is extremely frustrating considering the fact that when we sat on the commission, it was yes, is all around, you know what I mean?

It took a while for us to get there, but it was yes, is all around.

And so to get to this point and to have to testify and sit next to somebody from a police union or somebody from the state police trying to say the complete opposite of the conversation that we were having before.

My question is, what are they trying to hide?

Well, I'd say two things.

This most recent piece of legislation was supported by the new Chiefs of Police Association.

The attorney general's office that showed up to testify in support of it.

The Department of Motor Vehicles DMV testified in support of it.

The state police did testify in support of it.

Myself and the commissioner, we had conversations with some of the legislators that we called directly and said we support the legislation.

So everyone involved in that piece of legislation was supportive of it.

Now, I think I think there's two things that we have to look at.

Legislation is very, very difficult to pass.

We have lawmakers in here.

It's not like you put you put something on paper and everybody is in agreement.

But those of us who share the commission responsibility, those of us who are in law enforcement, we actually testified in support of that.

And I think I'm sorry.

The other thing that I would add is if there was any kind of a use the word pushback from law enforcement, I think the biggest concern that comes from law enforcement with regard to data collection is if we're going to do this, we want to make sure that we're doing it in a very objective and defined way so that the data actually is relevant and will be helpful to answer questions and speak to whether there is disparities and then where those disparities might be maybe more prominent across the state.

I think that's the most difficult piece to this is deciding how do we do it in a in a universal objective way so that a small police department way up north and the city of Manchester are answering the same questions in the same way.

And I think that's been a little bit of.

Thank you, Mr. Sippa I'm going to go right to Anthony because he does have a question.

I do, actually.

But Linda, I'd like to involve you in this.

And as part of this conversation, Lynne and I had a conversation about the what happened most recently when that when that House bill got voted down and Linda had a particular perspective that I thought would be important for us to to talk about today as part of the part of our goals here, to talk about what we can do to make sure the situations like we saw recently don't happen here.

I think it's also the role of the legislature.

Right.

And I think Linda has something to share with Linda.

Linda NAACP president as well as ranking member for Criminal Justice, public safety at the state of New Hampshire.

Speaking of that, my understanding was the issue became how do we document what someone's race is?

So that's been the issue at the State House.

So I'm going to say that law enforcement was against that because they felt that they had no way of determining what someone's race was.

And I guess the issue came up with, can you ask that person?

And some say yes and others say no.

But my understanding, there was conflict between law enforcement with those that agreed with possibly passing that bill and those that did not want the bill to pass.

And I do want to add on that, that this is not the only effort to to push data collection.

And so there were some before that were on I think there was a bill SB 96, a couple of years back, and the data collection provision was gutted from that bill.

And so I do want to make it clear that that is not the only effort.

And so when I said that, I didn't just pull that out of nowhere.

Yeah, well, typically every year we have the bill, but every year it goes pretty much nowhere.

And one of the other things that I want to bring out was that in talking to some of the officers around data, I do have data from like 2018.

There is some data out there in terms, but it showed exactly what the young lady here was saying, the disparities in and yet the racial disparities.

So I say that to say that I was told by the the state troopers that the only time that the data is captured is when someone is actually arrested.

But what we've been trying to get is data from just stops pullovers.

And that's the important piece that we've been trying to do and don't seem to be going anywhere with.

So it's still worked on.

Thank you, Linda.

I think maybe some legislatures need to come to New Jersey because we've been doing it for about five years now and its mandate is in the catch systems.

You stop someone, they have to do it.

And now with the body cams, the supervisors have to verify it.

They go to the head and they verify what they're saying.

I Mean it has to be done, but it has to be done consistently.

I agree.

Because garbage in, garbage out.

We learn that lesson.

We use of force data.

I remember getting use of force data from the hospital police and they sent us one year, 2000 reports and were like, Oh my God, what's going on in the hospitals with the police and what it was.

Every time they help someone, restrain someone, put them in a wheelchair, put them in a bed, they captured that use of force that was like, no, that's not what we're talking about.

So everyone was doing it differently.

So there's a training component and there's a monetary component with it as well, because you have to make sure everyone has a. I don't like using jargon, but like a system reporting system that does that because there are some reporting systems.

I don't know up here, we had some agencies that had old police departments that couldn't they didn't have a field for that information, so they had to upgrade that.

So there's also some cost sometimes with it.

But you want good data, you don't want to rush it.

But I think, like I said, we're we're here.

Great.

Here's another question.

Good evening.

My name is Steve Tompkins.

I'm the sheriff in Suffolk County in Massachusetts, and I'm also the regional vice president for Noble.

Let me say this to you, one that I'm gonna give you some facts in my department.

70%, 65% of my inmate population now, both male and female, are black.

About 70% have some involvement with substance use.

38% of my population is suffering from mental health issues.

28% of my ladies are dual diagnosed, meaning they suffer both from mental health and substance use issues.

The question is how do we deal with that situation?

And so when you talk about the focus here and when you talk about systemic racism, we have to work from the inside out, not the outside in.

We have to get in those systems to really effectuate some change.

And the way we do it, at my department, I have three academies every year.

50% of my academy has to be black or brown has to be black or brown because if I've got 65% people of color in a commonwealth where that same demographic is 18%.

How do you get 65 out of 18?

It's racism.

It's a whole bunch of things that are working against folks color.

When you have the disparity of just say, crack cocaine and powder cocaine, black guy gets busted, he gets 25, 40 years, whatever.

White guys get busted without him.

Not so much.

And so we can't talk about the fact that there is not systemic challenges here because it is I don't even refer to the criminal justice system as the criminal justice.

I refer to it as the criminal legal system, because if you don't have the resources, whether it's financial or relationships, to get that justice that you need, chances are you're not going to get it.

If you look at the time when the Emancipation Proclamation was done away with what rose up right after that, the penal system, you see.

So we went from one form of slavery to another of slavery.

So we've got to be realistic about what we're talking about and what we're doing here.

You know, nobody really wants to throw a barb at a white person or someone like that, but we have to be realistic.

And I got to tell you what scared the heck out of me was the presidential race in 2016 when the entire dynamic changed.

As to the that we could have.

So, Quovella you talked about this is the time to have the conversation.

We need to have these conversations daily once a week, once a month, once a year.

We need to have this daily.

It took a long time to get here.

It's going to take us a long time to get out of here.

And so the question is, are we going to check ourselves before we reconcile?

And we're going down that path where we are in ruins.

You see, this is a great country, but the strength of this country is our diversity.

If Carville and I said the same thing all the time, we would be boring as hell.

Okay.

But the point here is that we have to listen to different opinions and then work on them.

And if we don't work on them, then we're kidding ourselves.

Thank you.

Can we open up to another?

Yeah, we do have two microphones.

You first.

My name is Michael Worsley.

I've been in Manchester since 1985, raised two three grown children, and I've a 13 year old grandson in.

I moved here from a predominately black environment, Youngstown, Ohio.

And you can imagine going from Youngstown, Ohio, to New Hampshire.

And I can honestly say, yes, I had some horrendous situations with law enforcement.

Horrendous, no doubt.

But as I worked with Manchester Housing, when they started community policing, there were two white police officers that were part of our system as I worked for Manchester housing.

And I remember sitting down with them one time, I'd just been pulled over.

Actually, I was taken out of the car and handcuffed until it was proven the car wasn't the one that was reported stolen.

A look at one reporter stolen.

I sat with them for 4 hours and just unleashed.

Unleashed.

Here's what changed my perspective.

Two white males, police officers said to me, Michael and I'm a minister of the gospel, so I'll ask forgiveness after this.

They said, Michael, we have some assholes in our department.

We absolutely do.

You shouldn't have gone through that.

That was wrong.

That changed my perspective as I raised my two boys.

One is 36 Now, Dominic.

Oh, by the way, he's going to be a law and order SUV, as do you.

As you March 30th.

Check him out.

But.

But, but.

But I raised both of them knowing that I had to give them the talk.

The talk that I was giving.

I had to give them that talk.

But I also raised them to understand that I needed them to not live a victim mentality.

I needed them to understand because every issue they dealt with before they got pulled over, we had racism in our schools.

But I took a stand and I went.

And as a parent, understanding, I couldn't go in with my voice raised.

I got a deep voice.

I get that I'm only six one £230.

But in New Hampshire, that relates to seven foot, £400.

And so the reason I'm saying all this, because I had to understand there was a way I had to navigate, navigate to be able to get what I wanted with my children, my biggest concern, even as I'm sitting here right now with 13 year old grandson and to this moment he has very negative, negative, negative mindset about law enforcement.

My question to us is, with all the issues and how agree, I absolutely agree.

And sir, absolutely, we've got to understand the origin of it.

But I don't want to have a great grandson, and we still haven't done anything to get any further.

So I honor what these guys are doing today in New Hampshire to see a sister at the position she is, to see her brother, the position he is in, who by the way, the last thing I would say, I have no claim to fame, no claim to fame, no letters into my name.

But I've had this man at my house to talk about the issues as police officers in the state and some suggestions.

I spoke with this man in his office to speak about issues that we need to address in our state.

And I know the governor on a personal level.

And when George Floyd happened, I said, Governor, I said, what we need to do is not react.

I said and move like the rest of the country because we are not rest of the country.

We're in New Hampshire.

Let's begin to deal with it pertaining to New Hampshire and just grow from there.

So I applaud what we're doing tonight.

Yes.

We've got to have this every every day, sir.

But I can tell you, for somebody to have no claim to fame, I've speaking to some very high level folk in this state and they're willing to listen.

And that would not have happened 30 years ago.

Can I. I just want to, like, respond with kind of an opposing, I guess, experience that I've had you know, the governor appointed me to sit on the legal commission.

The New Hampshire Commission for Law Enforcement can be accountability, community and transparency, provided I was only 20, 21 years old at the time, and a few members on that commission treated me well.

But there are times where I was extremely disrespected.

I was treated terribly.

I'm not going to say anybody's names.

There was a time where I had a negative experience with during a traffic stop here in New Hampshire.

So what did I do?

I called the police department and I said, I want to have a conversation about not only what happened, but also the issues that occur here in New Hampshire.

It was 7 a.m. and this man yelled at me and he said, we do a very good job at this department.

We do a very good job in New Hampshire.

I was appalled.

I was shocked.

And I think that I agree with what you're saying.

But I think it's dangerous when we look at this and we say we're doing an okay job in New Hampshire, doing a good job, because then things like what happened to me happen and they don't even want to hear it because people are in their ear telling them that we're doing a good job in New Hampshire or they talk to this person, they talk to the NAACP, they talk to this organization, but they don't want to talk to me.

They don't want to talk to me.

They don't want to talk to Black Lives Matter Manchester because they don't agree with what I have to say.

And they think that we're doing a good job here in New Hampshire.

And that's difficult for me being a student here at the University of New Hampshire School of Law.

I'm in my second year, by the way.

I have seen I've just learned so much more about, I guess, the criminal justice system.

And it's very difficult for me to sit here and listen to conversations that people have with others on an individual level, because I know that it goes so much deeper than that.

And so I guess that's why at the beginning of this conversation, I talked about how discouraging it is to have these conversations, because it's not only the experiences that I have, but what I know and the work that I've done.

So I know we have a question.

Oh, yes.

Nicole, please.

Yeah, sure.

So I just was kind of thinking about how there's this talk about not maintaining a membership in a organization that's rooted in racism, But I think we have to take a critical look at how our jobs and careers have memberships that are rooted in racism.

I am a psychotherapist.

I have a career that is rooted in racism.

You know, we had diagnosis of drapes Romania, which pathologize slaves running away.

And I still as a therapist today, have to undo the harm that was caused generations ago.

And I still have to look at how it plays out today when I see black folks being diagnosed with thought disorders such as schizophrenia and then being treated with first class, first generation antipsychotics with terrible, horrible side effects.

The amount of these people, as I saw over there, was talking about who are incarcerated, but they are also dying most.

And we cannot make the change in the system if we say we're good now, if we're not acknowledging one.

What happened?

Historic actually in working to change how history is still playing out today because I know it plays out today in my profession and causes a lot of harm.

Thank You, Nicole.

There are some questions in the back.

I do have one individual right there.

Yeah, my name is Claire.

Holston, and I really just have a couple comments.

One is to the gentleman here, we shouldn't have to navigate how we interact in the state, whether it's with police, the health care system, because there's a problem.

We have to navigate.

I mean, something's out of balance.

Something's out of line.

And we can't fix what we can't acknowledge.

So I've been working with Eddie and I've been working with John.

And what struck me was when you said that we don't have a systemic problem.

I challenge you to not be defensive on that and to be open to what was said and maybe just take a look or maybe we can have some side conversations after.

But there are systemic problems.

We wouldn't be here if there weren't systemic problems.

That's not to say you're not doing your job.

And that's not saying that you're working from the top down and trying to make things better.

But just from a training standpoint, we know I can't get police officers to implicit bias trainings because in New Hampshire, the mindset is we don't have a problem and that's not true.

So we're going to continue to work together.

But I hope I challenge you to be open to go back and understand what systemic problems we may have that are embedded in white supremacy and then come back and say, we've looked into it.

We have a better understanding of it.

We've reviewed it.

Here's the data and then let us all collectively come to a determination.

If, in fact, what you say is true.

Because I challenge guys, I don't think that in reality that that is true.

Thank you.

Let's give a chance for our panelists to to discuss.

Well, I have to say, I really appreciate all the comments and the energy here.

And I'll say to you all, first, she and I have texted each other, call each other many times.

And so whether it's Ronelle or anyone in this audience, if you feel like you've experienced some injustice in the state, we've created structures and systems for you to report those things.

And you have to have some level of faith in reporting what you've experienced and and following that up.

And so we're trying to be as transparent as we can in this system.

But it takes work and it takes all of us collectively to work together to get there.

And so I just want to make sure I'm very clear when I say that our system is not structurally racist.

And I'll speak specifically about the Department of Safety, for instance, if we are trying to do implicit bias training, procedural justice, all these things that we know speak directly to police officers and troopers, the same thing at the police academy.

I actually teach a course at the police academy on that.

So we're really trying to get there.

But if there are community issues where you you can say to me structurally, this is an issue that we have with your department or these are issues that we have with troopers in your department, These are issues that are going on that's helpful to us.

Right.

So if you are experiencing things that you're seeing, things we've got to know, we've got to know this, this is a shared responsibility.

This is your Department of Safety.

Your state police is your police officers of the state.

And the community has to say, here's some issues that we're having.

That's why these these conversations are important.

This is not just one night and done.

This is an ongoing process.

So if you're feeling that you've been diminished, if you feel like somebody stops you on your way home tonight, you've got to report that the attorney general's office is tonight because they actively look at these cases and we want them.

We want those cases we've just created.

In January 1st of this year, we have a police officer misconduct review committee that's new in the state.

So police departments, police leaders in the state, elected leaders in the state.

People are asking for those cases to be brought forward.

And and I think you have to have some trust in the system, just like we have to trust you.

You have to trust the system, but you've got to bring those there.

And when there's no accountability, there's no response.

Then you can say to me, Hey, you're not doing what you said you're going to do.

You haven't followed up on this.

You haven't done that.

You have advocated to change these systems.

I think that's fair.

I think it's fair to hold someone accountable in my position or anybody else position up here if they haven't done what they said they were going to do.

But you've got to let us know.

Can I just respond real quick?

I feel like this could be just me.

That's what we are saying is that nothing's being done.

Systems are still broken.

Outcomes are still the same.

Murders are still happening.

I'll tell you, as a person who I work in early childhood, I work in social work.

That system is definitely broken, right?

We all agree to that.

And we acknowledge that and we're trying to make changes in that.

It's strange or hard to hear when you say there's systems in place for you to report it.

And if those aren't working, let us know.

And we're telling you it's not working.

I had an incident happen with my son.

I ended up having six patrol cars at my car, me, little me, six patrol cars at my house for an incident that happened in my son.

For a neighbor who questioned him for ridiculousness for a white neighbor.

Six cars at my house, not his house, my house.

So when you tell me it's not broken or there's measures to report it, when I went right to the police the next day and they were just like, so sorry.

And to your point, Tanisha, I've had that experience playing Spanish music in my car where I was pulled over and another police officer had to come.

And I'm a U.S. citizen, and I was asked if I was a U.S. citizen in that moment.

And so, like Tony says, it's those systems that are broken.

And how do we trust you?

Because this is trust building, right?

How do we trust you to then trust us and back and forth?

No, no, I trust you.

And I don't discount your experience.

I don't discount your experience.

And I trust that what you're saying is absolutely the truth.

But part of that is just that if you reported that to the police department, you're in Portsmouth right?

No I'm in Exeter.

And if you had a conversation with the police chief there and it didn't go the way you thought he should go, the next step is the attorney general's office, because we have to work within a system.

And if there's a system change that's needed and that we have to all advocate for that system change.

But I'm not suggesting that these systems are perfect.

Don't misunderstand me.

I'm not suggesting that the systems are perfect.

But what I'm saying is that we have to use these systems and when they're not working the way they should be working, then we have to identify those issues and say, this didn't happen the way it should happen.

So if you were telling me you reported that to the National I'm sorry, the Exeter police chief, and he didn't respond, I would hope that, you know, now that you're encouraged to contact the attorney general's office, and I'm telling you, if you call me, I'll contact them for you.

And I'm not just saying that's not a person I'm looking out this audience.

Most of the people here, I've had some type of conversation with the relationship with that, and I'm happy to do that.

I'm happy to do that.

But but at the end of the day, when you have a bad experience, we have to address that.

Can I ask the question if someone did give you a call and say this happened, do you really have the power to make a change systemically?

I mean, what has happened as a positive result of someone reaching out to you to say, I experience X, Y, and Z?

So I think if we knew that it would be easier for us to trust and say, you know what, I got a person.

Well, what I think when you talk about a systemic change, a systemic change is having a resource that, you know, you can call it action is going to happen.

That's a systemic change now.

But I shouldn't need a resource.

I guess that's the problem.

The truth of the matter the truth of the matter is whether you're white, whether you're Latino, whether you're Asian, whether you're male or female, white rich, or you're poor, everyone needs a resource, someone to call when you have it, when you when you're dealing with a business, you have someone you can call and say, I got a complaint.

My cable that turned off.

You want someone there who you know is going to follow up and take some action.

That's not a bad thing.

So having somebody to reach out to is not a bad thing.

And if we look at it and say, well, I don't want to have someone in contact, I don't have somebody I can talk to, I just want to be able to call up a complaint and we want you to be able to do that and we want you to be a follow up, but we want you also to have confidence that that's going to happen.

So what I'm telling you is just put a name on your complaint.

Say I called Assistant Commissioner Edwards and he didn't do anything about it.

We don't have to say, Why don't I mention any names?

Just say I called you and you didn't do anything about that.

You didn't follow up.

Because when you call into a system, you know, you're calling just like me.

If I call your place of business and I didn't get your name.

That's why I see people all the time whose you talk to.

I don't know who you talked to, so I can hold that person accountable.

That's what the system works.

We got to hold people accountable, and I get that.

But I think the problem is I shouldn't have a resource because I was targeted because of my skin color.

You know what I mean?

Like, I don't want to have to pull out someone out my pocket because something happened to me because of that shouldn't have happened.

I could see it was, you know, something else.

Let me give a let me call it a favor.

But that wasn't this.

You know what I mean?

No, no, no, no, no.

I agree with you.

It shouldn't happen.

No, No one should be treated poorly because of their skin color.

It shouldn't happen.

But if it does happen, we need to correct it.

We need to correct it.

And if it happens in that and you hold on to that experience and you don't share that or you don't push beyond that, that the next person may suffer the same thing.

That's why I'm asking you to share it.

I think the other important thing to remember, too, is when we get that information that there was a problem, there was a breakdown, Something didn't go the way it was supposed to go.

Well, when we talk about law enforcement and really this applies to other businesses as well.

There's really four important places where you can make change, where you can correct a problem.

In law enforcement, we look in the first place, we look at hiring and hiring standards and maintaining high hiring standards.

Here in New Hampshire, we do a good job of holding police departments accountable for doing excellent background investigations through the leak commission.

We've now changed some rules with regard to being able to immediately wash a candidate who has demonstrated any kind of bias, racial bias or other type of bias.

So the first place that we can make changes in the hiring, making sure we're bringing the right people into the business.

The second place is training the fact that a police officer asked you that question on a motor vehicle stop.

That's a training issue.

They they should know that they don't have any business to ask that question in the legal.

I'm sorry, it's illegal.

It is illegal.

And so that is a training issue that we need to make sure that the officers are are getting that particular piece of information in their initial training and in their ongoing training.

So you have hiring standards.

You have training standards, which unfortunately, when we talk about defunding the police, one of the first places that gets defunded is the hiring and training, because that's that's where you can find a little bit of money when you're trying to cut a budget.

And that's unfortunate because it just perpetuates the problem.

Right?

The third place where you can affect change is through supervision.

The supervision of subordinate police officers is vitally important.

The the debacle, the criminal act that occurred in Memphis, Tennessee, for a variety of reasons, there was there was no supervisor that ever showed up to that.

And supervision is absolutely important when it comes to monitoring appropriate behavior of the police.

And then finally the last piece that is so important that helps address problems and breakdowns in the system is holding officers accountable, implementing appropriate discipline.

So when we find out that there was a failure in the system where something didn't work the way it was supposed to, that there was somebody that was treated inappropriately, if somebody did something that was not proper or lawful, it's going to fall in one of those four places.

The hiring.

It's a hiring problem that needs to be addressed.

It's a training problem that needs to be corrected.

It's a supervision problem or it is a discipline or lack of discipline problem.

Thank you, Mr. Scippa I'm just going to head it over to our young gentleman over there who's been waiting for the.

My name is Andris.

I'm the director of Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Justice for SAU16 and also serve on the board of directors of Black Lives Matter Seacoast.

I just wanted to thank you all for for having this conversation.

And I support this conversation.

It's awesome to see all this beautiful, empowered melanin in the room.

So that's nice to be in this space.

I think we have to change the narrative of what I heard from the beginning of this conversation is that this is happening in other places and not in New Hampshire, because when we say that it makes people, especially white people, say that we don't have to fix anything because that's happening in Boston or Massachusetts or in Massachusetts, happened in New York and all the places we mentioned where it's happening happen to be places where there's high populations of people of color.

So when we say that people here like that's not our issue in New Hampshire, which why would I even buy into an implicit bias training?

Why, why, why would I buy into saying that it has to do better and and watch how I approach people of color because my leaders are saying it's not an issue in our state, it's an issue somewhere else.

So we have to change that narrative.

I mean, it is an issue.

I've been living here for 14 years.

You know, I come from Boston, Mass.

Roxbury, Dorchester, where I dealt with a lot of police.

And I also dealt with a lot of police here in New Hampshire being a black Latino businessman.

And people approached me differently when they pulled me over.

They have attitude.

You know, I used to work at UNH and I used to do this thing called the weekend Walk in where we walked across campus to make sure there was no support to students who needed walks home and so on.

And there used to be police officers walking around as well, and we used to say hi to them, How are you doing?

And every time I approached a police officer, the colleague I was walking with, white person my same size, they get a handshake and a smile and wearing the same jacket that says weekend walkers, whatever.

And when they shook my hand, their bodies tensed up.

Why did their bodies tense up?

Why did their smile go away?

They're not dealing with the same stuff we're dealing with in Boston or New York, but they are being socialized through media and TV and that, you know, so they bring those those fears with them to their job.

So I think that's just something I want to put in that place is that we have to stop saying that that's not happening in New Hampshire because it actually is.

And I have many I work in the school system and I work with a lot of black students across.

And I see that stuff they have to deal with from school police, the stuff they have to deal with by principals, administration, how they get treated, the language that gets written down and reports for them compared to others white students.

So I think that's we have to take that narrative that we don't have, you know, those same issues because that one black person in the community matters.

You know, their one experience that that they just dealt with matters, you know, And we have to see that as a big issue because, as you know, our numbers are just raising.

We're we're our diversity is growing.

We're becoming a more beautiful state.

And we have to realize that.

So, yeah, I we want to I just want to address that real quickly, because if I have said something here tonight, it makes you think that I don't think we have issues of racism, sexism and bigotry in our state.

That's not what I meant to imply when I say what's happening in New Hampshire, when I want to give us what I want us to take a deep breath and look at what we're doing in New Hampshire.

I think we're doing creative things and unique things that other states aren't doing to address some of the issues that you're talking about.

And I think that's what we need to stay focused on, too.

If you look at this audience tonight, if you look at what's happened tonight, this is what I mean by something that New Hampshire has taken of Tyreese.

Nichols death brought a conversation from a phone call to this and more conversations after that.

So I look at our state, the things we're doing to try to work on these issues and fix these issues and address these issues like building implicit bias programs or procedural justice programs and keep working on that.

I do think in New Hampshire we reach out more effectively than other states.

That doesn't mean that we don't have issues and we're not challenged by some of those issues that I just think we do it in a different way to try to reach people and have positive conversations, because I think that's the only way we're going to address these issues is by being positive, hold each other accountable, but working toward solutions that you I know you want to say something and then I'm going to pass it off to I'm sorry that I'm going to make it really quick so that I make sure that other people get a chance to speak.

I know.

Director Scippa you mentioned something about and things like that.

I think the conversation about training has been hard.

I think a lot of changes have happened.

But you also mentioned how when we have a conversation about defunding the police, one of the first things that goes is training and things like that.

I do, however, want to mention the fact that when you're defunding you're not just defunding, you're reinvesting in other places that need help.

And it's difficult for me to, like somebody said, buy in to like more implicit bias training and things like that.

When we have a housing crisis in Manchester, when when our schools are like in terrible shape, you know what I mean?

And so it's hard for me to buy into more training, different training, and pouring more money into that when there are so many other things that we need to deal with.

And those things that we are dealing with would solve all the problems that we are discussing.

Not all the problems, but they would alleviate some of the burden that we're feeling.

Thank you.

We have a question over here or a statement?

Yes.

Very quickly, I, I disagree somewhat that that we need to look from the outside looking in, because you do get a perspective that you're not going to get because there is this narrative to this young man's point, did it and it has been echoed during this conversation, if this doesn't happen in our state.

I've been here since 2011.

I was harassed as a law student.

I represented black and brown people of color for 12 years.

And Nashua and Manchester were right now having a public discourse about a disgusting, racist meme sent by a detective to supervisors who failed to do anything about it.

And it's not being taken seriously.

So to Commissioner Abbott's point, I can't take confidence that it can be taken seriously because it's been reported, it's been looked into, there's been public pressure about it and you have two supervisors who were not held accountable at all.

So how can I take any comfort in director Scippa is saying what we need is supervisors, you know, to be controlling the behavior subordinates when you have two supervisors one replying haha.

In regards to a meme dehumanizing and disgracing George Floyd in 2021 after the great work we did on the Commission.

So we can't have this rosy conversation about we're special here in New Hampshire.

We cannot have this conversation that we're unique.

We're not.

We're having public discourse right now that's in the papers.

And as somebody who is in a unique position where I have helped those people for 12 years, trust me, there is elements of racism, there is elements of bullying.

And it is not just one bad apple.

And that is a refrain that our governor opened up with when we started this commission.

So we need to change that narrative of, Oh, it's only one bad apple.

We need to look into the culture of policing.

We need to aggressively do it.

You need this outside look, because you don't have the capacity to see it without the outside forcing you to.

That's the word you said that I've been sitting here.

It's culture and having been the head of two departments, it's very hard to change the culture from inside, from on top.

When you have laws you have police unions, you just can't say.

That's why he said there's a process.

Listen, if you feel a certain type of way during a traffic stop doing the interaction with the police officer, people in the head of departments need to know it.

And if they're not doing anything, then it needs to be reported to the attorney general's office, because that builds like a rap sheet.

I'll use jargon on that officer because if 50 people have said it, that raises a flag to people like, hey, wait a minute, you know, something's going on here, and that person can be.

But if one person says it, go away.

The other 49 say, well, they never did anything about that one, so I'm not going to report it.

You you have to trust in the system.

You have to trust.

And some of us that are there doing the work and the trenches because guess what?

Bad police officers make it bad for the good ones.

And that's not a slogan.

It's true, but it is the culture.

It definitely is the culture.

And it's very hard to change the culture when you just can't fire people.

Trust me, when I went into the new department at, I was like, I had no use for 50 of them.

What did I do?

Change policies, change practices.

One of the ones soon as I change how they can get overtime ten of them left, they like, Oh gosh, she did that.

No.

Then soon as I change who rides in what cars with different people, ups another ten.

They're gone.

So it starts at the top and you have to recognize I hate to say it, Why are they there?

You know, why are they still there?

Because there's a system that's designed in legislation, in government, in laws that say we have to follow progressive discipline.

We know who they are, but I have to protect myself, because if I just go and fire them, they'll sue me, they'll sue the department, they'll sue everyone.

And trust me, it's a process.

I don't agree with that either.

If it's anything they can do, they can develop a process where we can do three strikes.

You're out with a cop.

You know they did it in the law with criminals.

Why can't we do it with cops?

Can I ask real quick?

Know there's somebody from the AG's office here, Roughly how many reports of this nature do you guys actually receive?

Because I feel like we're having this conversation, too.

And if you're calling a police department, for example, and you're complaining about something, they're not going to tell you called, they're not going to tell you call the AG's office.

If you feel like this needs to go further, you know what I mean?

So I'm wondering how many people even know that you can do that.

And my guess is very little people know the like, no, it's my first time knowing that because I learn and I'm like, let me get that number.

We do have a question over here.

Oh, yes.

Oh, yes.

Sorry.

Could you respond, please?

Sure.

My name is Shawn Lock.

I'm with the attorney general's office.

I didn't come prepared with exact numbers to answer your question today.

I wasn't planning to speak today.

So?

So, but we receive reports of those incidents.

And, you know, when we receive them, we do.

We look at them.

We make sure if it's whether it's our agency or another agency that needs to look at this, whether it's going back to their police department and having a conversation with them so that they can do a proper internal investigation to engage in that progressive discipline that may need to occur.

But at the same time, there are points of frustration where you can't just fire a police officer kind of with the snap of your finger.

And we've seen examples of that where that discipline tries to be imposed and then that officer gets reinstated.

They get put back on that police force with the cash cow.

Yes, exactly.

So, you know, there are other changes beyond that that probably do need to be considered beyond that to address that situation and to make that to to increase that protection and perhaps prevent those incidents from being able to recur, you know, in something important is when you report these problems, if they elevate to the attorney general's office, Attorney Locke is one of our instructors at the police academy.

So not only is Attorney Locke in a position to try to help and resolve at his level, but he can also bring that information back to the academy to say, Hey, we've identified another training issue that we have to address.

So That interconnection really is very helpful.

Thank you.

We do have a question over here.

Thank you.

My name is Jason Green.

I'm the deputy director for the ACLU of New Hampshire.

I'm going to preface my story by sharing that this did not happen in New Hampshire, but it did kind of set the basis for my bias against police that has kind of hit me to the core.

I have a niece named Michelle and I will forever lift up her name.

But Michelle was diagnosed bipolar and she has a social worker and my sister Fran was out of town and a social worker called Friend to say Michelle is having a manic episode and I can't control her.

And with my sister being out of town, she said, I can't help you.

And that social worker decided to call the police.

And when Michelle answered the door, she answered the door with a hammer in her hand and they immediately shot her and killed her.

My brother from Noble was talking about we know that many of the people who are incarcerated may have issues of substance abuse or mental health issues.

If we know this way, are we doing something to help this community?

My brother here was talking about the education of people.

He's very proud of the education of people who are joining the police department.

I honestly don't know what education is required to be a police officer, but I feel like there is some kind of additional training that needs to be said, that needs to be had and some kind of additional training that needs to be had, because there are populations out here and populations out here who are under attack by the police department.

And I just feel like we can sit here and say over and over again that everything is okay.

But my nieces in the ground, yeah, my heart breaks for you and your family that that tragedy will never, ever be be fixed.

It will never be fixed.

And I'm sorry for that.

Please understand that from a training perspective we recognize that and in fact are getting ready to have crisis intervention training.

Now made part of the Recruit Training academy.

Right now we have a 24 hour block of instruction to help police officers learn how to interact with those people who are suffering from a mental health issue.

We're going to take that program out and we're going to put in the 40 hour Memphis model City training for every recruit moving forward in the we call it a third and fourth class.

So the two classes that will be starting this summer will be when we introduce that program into the Recruit Training Bureau.

We work directly with New Hampshire NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness.

They are the subject matter experts.

They deliver that block of instruction.

It is through legislation.

It is the initiative to make sure that every single police department has those officers certified in crisis intervention training.

The unfortunate truth is that often times the police are called because there's no one else left to call to help and.

The conversation that we're having, we we recognize that we're we're not the best first people to call to respond to somebody who's having a mental health issue.

We're not we we are trained to enforce the law and to hold people accountable when they break the law.

We have very minimal training when dealing with people who are suffering from mental health crisis, just like we have very minimal training in first aid, we're not the best first people to call if you have a suitable, understood understood.

But because of the limited training and the the inexperience, the the police officers are did not have that depth of knowledge to understand that it could be anything other than somebody who had a weapon in their hand.

And I don't know the facts of the case.

Again, it a tragedy that will never be made.

You will never be made whole.

And I understand that.

And my heart breaks for that.

But we're trying we're we're we're hearing about these tragedies that occur all over the country.

And here in New Hampshire.

We're trying to do the best we can to to help prepare those new police officers to be able to be more effective when dealing with people who are suffering from mental health issue.

We also worked very closely with the development of a statewide system where instead of the police responding to those non-dangerous events, the police not respond and in fact mental health workers will respond.

And that is being developed.

It's actually working in many communities right now, and we're trying to get that statewide.

Again, a lot of resources are necessary for that system, that network to be effective and universal across the state.

Thank you.

We have one last question and then we are running close to time.

Hi.

I'm Anthony Peyton.

I'm with freelance writer, podcast host.

I am from the projects of Brooklyn, New York.

We had the highest homicide rate in the nation.

I can remember police down there.

This is that I won't age myself too much, but in the late seventies, early eighties, all through the nineties, crack epidemic, AIDS, everything is converging at the same time.

And the cops down there were to say crooked is an understatement.

But at the same time, I do remember two white cops from Long Island and they would come get out of their cars on duty and shoot hoops with us.

Then they would throw us the football and with the snap of a finger, it seemed like we went back to being adversaries.

I don't know whose administration it was under, what have you.

But now I'm in New Hampshire and I have two stepsons and a young daughter.

My Stepsons are Tyrrell and Tavon, with my daughters, Amelia Payton.

I worry about Tyrell and Tavon.

Tavon is going to grow to be about six four easily.

And I know what's happened to me being in a vehicle with either me and a Puerto Rican guy and a white woman or another time it was two white guys and me, guess who wound up doing the time?

And I'm not saying that I was innocent in it either, but I'm just giving it to you from my perspective now.

When comes to policing and things like that, there are caveats and nuances that I couldn't even imagine.

So there are two sides to every story.

If you want to know what's systemic racism lies that and is greatness.

New Hampshire State Prison had this conversation with someone earlier.

You look around the state, I don't see too many brothers and sisters like the numbers aren't there.

You walk into that state prison, there's a lot of black and brown men in there.

The same thing with the federal system.

I've done every.

You are looking at the face of incarceration, the face of redemption, the face of fatherhood.

You know, I'm a little nervous.

I haven't been around as much police in a good way, in a very long time.

However, what I what I will say is this.

It takes this success will not be in a vacuum.

It takes everyone.

You talk about mental health.

I work the mental health center of Greater Manchester, the Cyber center.

And they have police come in every day.

They come and sit with the counselors.

A call happens, a counselor, a mental, a trained mental health counselor goes out with the police and they do what they have to do.

Because at the end of the day, you guys are on track.

Like you said, you're not trained to handle that, nor do I want a counselor out there.

If someone robbed a bank, I don't want the counselor out there drawing her look 38 or whatever, to try to stop it.

And that goes for the communities as well.

And so for the black and brown community, what I would say is this.

We have to talk to our kids differently.

I think a lot of us get caught up in those Facebook and YouTube videos where a guy gets pulled over and he's reading the cop, the Riot act and what have you, and it's just doesn't work like that.

I would implore you to talk to your children and your friends to say to them, look, let it let it draws natural course.

Get the lawsuit.

That is not the time to stand and debate on what the First and Second Amendment are and and what have you.

Do what you need to do with me because I'll see you in court.

And I think that's the message that we need to spread around.

So I'll keep it short because everyone else needs to speak.

Thank you.

I just want to say that his nephew, Terrell he's one of my fellow co-founders, and back in 2016, he had just graduated high school and he organized the very first Black Lives Matter protests here in New Hampshire.

And there would be no BLM in Manchester without him.

So, okay, we have one more.

Yeah.

Okay.

Hi, my name is Rochelle Jones.

I'm a human being and a police officer.

I've been a police officer for 20 years.

I started my career working at Leavenworth Prison in the Army.

I'm a person of color.

I'm the only female of color police officer at my department.

I'm not here to speak on behalf of my department, but I am here to answer one of the things that you talked about earlier with some of your friends saying, why do we have these conversations?

In 2009, I was promoted to detective.

I got a letter from what I thought was the NAACP and when I opened it, it was an article and on that article was written, Congratulations on your promotion.

The picture on the article was an orangutan holding two orangutan babies.

I was shocked for a year and a half on the job with racial letters, pictures.

They eventually caught the person.

He was prosecuted, but he wasn't prosecuted for a hate crime.

For whatever reason, it happened.

I didn't know who said that at first.

I was really glad it wasn't somebody from my department.

And to be honest, it's not that I thought I worked with people like that, but when it happened, I just wasn't sure.

My dad is black, my mom is white.

I've gotten it from all sides.

When I went down south, they asked me if I was albino because they'd never seen mixed girls with red hair.

My father grew up in an orphanage for colored children, and when George Floyd happened, he was my first phone call.

And I just want to say nobody talked to us police officers and asked us how we felt about that when that happened.

And that was extremely emotional.

We're talking a lot about systems and I think we need to get back to being human beings and we need to acknowledge emotion.

Not everybody is from New Hampshire.

Not everybody has experiences from New Hampshire.

So the first instinct sometimes with people is to think they didn't experience it.

So they don't want to stop and think about that trauma.

Like we're really good about trauma informed when it comes to sexual assaults or violence, this is trauma.

Eva and I are friends from conversations like this.

She called me one time and somebody got pulled over and we thought it was because their name, if they were allowed to be here or not for national policy, we were able to check that out.

And I want to say from working with you, we did a lot of the prominent racist things were going on in the seacoast.

We did forums and from that I met somebody from an agency who reached out to me not long ago and said, There is a professor at UNH that received the racist email.

It was handled by you in a police department.

It was not handled.

It was handled the way that we handled things.

But she was not satisfied.

She was afraid.

That's real that's real, that people are afraid to talk to us.

So I have always told kids when I was an SRO, they said, I remember a kid telling me he had reason plans like don't like police.

And I told him, I said, You don't like I don't like all the police.

I said, But if you can find one that you can trust, Right.

I was very honored.

She reached out to me and said, Can you reach out to this professor?

You have to change the way that you police.

Because what she told me was she's afraid for your department to know where she lives.

She's a resident of Portsmouth.

She doesn't know that your department hasn't been infiltrated by racism.

And I said, okay.

I said, send have her send me an email.

And I asked her to zoom.

I said, You don't have to tell me where you live.

I would love to know because if something happens, I would want to be able to respond.

But I understand that I can still take a police report from you as you're comfortable doing it.

We have the ability to do that and that's what we did.

And then I emailed Shaun, and even when the attorney General's office came to speak at our department about the guys on the bridge and the sign and everything, one of my questions was in the audience is what do we tell people when something like that happens?

Who do they call?

You know, and they gave that information because we're leaving that out.

So my point is we can police differently.

I get a lot of compliments on how I do it.

I don't know why we don't take the ones that are doing it well and teach them to teach others.

And one last thing is when Mara, Dave, Mara took over our department, he allowed me to join the disproportionate minority community, and that's when we learned about the disparities.

But they were doing something called the Mirror Project, which is a something that we're going to do with our department.

Right.

And they were teaching juveniles and it started juveniles of color, and they were showing them how to be the police, you know, And then they got to be try to move the officers out that were being jerks, you know.

But to me, that taught you how it feels.

We do implicit bias training.

And I'll be honest, a lot of times it's on the computer and you're just checking boxes like nobody's watching you.

But when we learn how to do a Taser, we get tased because we're told if we know how it feels, then we won't abuse it.

But why are we not being trained to feel what that's like, to be discriminated against?

Because your discrimination people may not know what I am and a lot of times I'll hear things because they don't know what I am.

But somebody may recognize you immediately as black and be racist.

I can't meet you on your experience, but I can meet you on that emotion of what that feels like.

And I feel like that's the missing piece in this.

And everybody's correct in this, but good things can happen from these conversations.

So please don't stop having these conversations and don't give up on us.

Want want to say thank you to you.

So just to close out on a positive note for these panelists because you all got hit, What's next?

What do you see is what's next?

What can we do or what are you guys going to do when you leave?

This room?

Today started?

Yeah.

So New Hampshire's going to join Noble because Sheriff Tompkins has started that process.

We're going to make sure it continues and it finishes and we're going to region one conference where we're going to continue this conversation with the officers that get it, you know, throughout the region from New Hampshire all the way to New Jersey.

So, you know, we're looking forward to that because I do believe there are things that, from all up and down the coast we do correctly, and we just need to share that.

We do, because sitting here tonight, I'm hearing things and I'm like, oh, okay, I want to hear about that.

The Mirror project.

I want to hear about this and vice versa.

So, you know, listen, we're all in this together.

We're not going to make it out just sitting here in our own silos saying, not us.

We have to keep going.

We have to keep connecting and communicating.

So thank you for having me, for having noble and inviting me into your world.

Thank you.

I really represent the training and regulatory side of New Hampshire law enforcement.

That's that's my position.

And I can tell you from the time I took the job to today and moving forward, I am committed to upholding the highest standards possible with regard to hiring, training and regulating and holding police officers accountable.

I look forward to continuing that mission and taking on every bit of help and advice as we move that mission forward.

I am going to bend Rochelle's ear afterwards because I think we have maybe a an important piece that we can add to our training.

Mr.

Wisely, I just received your phone number a couple of days ago and now we can talk face to face.

I'm looking very forward to that.

If anybody in this audience, if anybody who's watching or listening, has a question or concern that they think that I answer, please, please reach out.

And like the assistant commissioner said, you know, these conversations and this information good or bad, we need to hear about it so that we can take proactive steps or reactive steps, right.

To fix the problem that is is being identified.

I tell my employees all the time, I can't help you fix a problem if I don't know about it.

And I say the same thing.

If we don't know about a problem, something's broken, Then we're not going to know that we have to put effort towards fixing it.

The conversation, the continued conversation daily.

I somebody said daily, right.

We have to keep that going.

So I stand ready to be part of that.

Well, first of all, I want to thank all of you for showing up tonight.

This says you could have been anywhere tonight.

You could have been watching any number of TV programs and enjoying your family.

But you're here tonight.

So I really want to thank you for taking the time to drive up here to the state of New Hampshire.

Thank you for traveling here.

I want to thank our law enforcement partners in the audience for being here as well.

And I certainly want to thank the other panel members as well.

One of the things I think is unique about our state, and I'll keep going back to this, is relationships.

I pride myself on connecting these relationships.

Anthony I had a relationship.

I have at least everyone here I have to have a relationship with you.

You.

Oh, well, well, well.

Okay, let's see if sometimes one sided.

So, so, so, so, so, so.

So I think at the end of the day, this is about building bridges.

And I really want to make sure that the audience understands this we are going to be starting up a noble chapter here in the state, in New Hampshire, and everyone in this audience can join us.

Remember, you don't got to be a law enforcement officer to hold office in Noble.

But you can join as an associate member.

Anybody here can numbers up.

Yes.

So so we've been working on this for a year.

When we talk about the mirror project, that's what the project myself and Dave Mara actually started from Manchester Police Department at the time.

So there are a lot of good things happening.

I think the training that the Academy is will continue this, these conversations will continue.

I think they're important.

I think it's important to hold ourselves accountable.

I think it's important for all of the work that you're doing in the communities, hold people accountable.

I think it's great that you understand that.

It's not one call.

Keep pushing, keep holding people accountable.

I'm happy to receive the phone calls and push them in places they need to be.

Please reach out.

Please.

I'm in my position as assistant commissioner.

I am able to reach out to a lot of different people and I'm asking you to help me help our system change.

If we're going to get there, it's going to be us working together to do that.

That includes you too.

But I want to reiterate what everybody else said.

I think you guys all for coming.

I have wheels turning in my head right now.

I'm trying to figure out how I can get more people informed about making reports to the AGs office, because I'm just not convinced that as many reports as could be received are being received.

So that's the first thing.

And the other thing is I want to hear from my community members.

I know how difficult it is when you feel like you don't have a seat at the table and when you feel like you don't have a voice or a platform, reach out to me and I will help be that voice for you.

Thank you.

Thank you, everyone.

I just want to say thank you, all of you, especially all those who shared your experiences, because those matter.

And you know, you don't need me to validate your experiences, but I just want to make sure that you guys were heard.

So thank you for sharing that.

So thank you for the folks from Noble for showing up and representing I mean, for real.

For real, right?

Y'all don't have to do that.

But you did.

I want to think Eddie for your leadership in helping us convene this conversation, for picking up the phone when I called you when I was crying like a baby, try and help myself understand why this stuff continues to happen, Right?

Let's just keep it real.

So, Director, Scippa.

Thank you for coming and sharing your your particular piece of information.

And I also want to thank those members of law enforcement who didn't have a chance to speak.

Right.

Who took the time to be here just to listen.

And so, you know, sometimes you don't have to speak to demonstrate that you care, but you just have to be present.

So I just want to take a moment to express my sincere gratitude and say thank you.

I also want to acknowledge and there's a lot of work that went into this, so please forgive me.

Our video and audio production partners at NHPBS, NHPR and particularly the staff of Franklin Pierce University, for your support.

All these all these young folks out here doing this are all students, and they've been very, very helpful in doing this.

I also want to thank UNH law school for hosting us.

Right.

And for being so hospitable.

We've been we've kind invaded this space for the past few days trying to get everything set up.

And it was it was really helpful.

So thank you.

That being said, I just want to thank you.

I want to ask you all to drive safe, take care of those that you love and those that love you.

All right.

This was not the this is not the first nor will be the last of this kind of conversations.

I promise you.

We promise you fair.

I mean, okay.

All right.

Thank you all very much.

Drive safe.

Be good.